Bottom Jared and Sam in their OTP's

[isoughtyouout]

Bottom Jared: I guess for me I have a hard time envisioning Jared as a bottom mostly because I just don't see him as a kind of character who would willingly bottom for an extended amount of time. I guess that's where a lot of fics with bottom Jared go wrong for me because I just don't buy their portrayal of Jared being this needy bottom who always wants to be screwed. I don't believe the man wants to be penetrated and the author doesn't create a large enough incentive to make it work or make it credible. He just seems to want it, well why? What makes Jared want it? Safe to say I just don't buy it.

The man is just so assertive and extroverted in everything that he does and in generally is so very dominant in all the things that he does why would he feel the need to want to be penetrated? I just don't see him as being this person who would want to bottom all the time. I could see him experimenting with it if his partner pushed for it a couple of times or even see him being curious. But I can't believe that he would want to exclusively bottom and not want to penetrate his partner. That's just not believable. I find that to be even less believable when Jensen is made out to be the top in their relationship. Specifically because Jared always takes the lead in their relationship and always initiates contact with Jensen. He leads and Jensen follows be it in conversations at conventions, photo pictures and interviews, etc. Jared just seems to always lead. So how can I buy that all of the sudden Jensen calls the shots in their bedroom?

I can buy a character like JDM making Jared want it, but that is because their is an authority figure here that I believe JDM is able to work with, and it's that daddy figure and pronounced experience that would make Jared want to try bottoming. But I can't buy that with Jensen/Jared or J2 because I don't think Jensen has that much pronounced experience, expertise and sexual deviance over Jared.

As to his stature. The man is 6'5 tall and is built like a mountain, he can bench press well over 200 pounds since I don't buy that Jared would want it I have an equally hard time believing that a character could force him into it. There is pretty much no one in the CWRPS that could physically force Jared into much of anything. So how am I supposed to believe that Jensen could make Jared submit to him? The only way I could see Jared bottoming by force is if he was ill/sick, de-aged, physically injured, sleeping or if he was incapacitated in another way like being tied up.

Which brings me to the next point. From what I have read from most bottom Jared fics they usually have Jared incapacitated in some way which I understand the reason for. They need to find some way to weaken the dominant hold of a stronger Jared in order to make the other character top. They usually try to remove Jared's strength in numerous ways in order to make the other character top him. They will make him lower of social status, take away his out going nature, make him incredibly young or they will weaken his muscle development. Virtually stripping him of his powerful figure in an attempt to make him more recessive and softer. They need to weaken Jared in order to make him vulnerable for the other character to be dominant over him. Which isn't my cup of tea at all. I don't want to read Jared being hurt, drugged or beaten which is why I usually don't read bottom Jared fics

Comments

[wednesday-d.livejournal.com]

I love this!!

but I think Dean can top ANYONE, he's really that much the alpha type. After 6 years I still have problem thinking Dean bottoms. And the fandom making him the ultimate bottom boy drove me nut. Jared seriously screams submissive for me and the first time I watched a con vid I thought Jensen was such an alpha!male.

I couldn't have said it better myself!! Jensen has this subtle way of being in control, keeping quiet and letting Jared do what he does, but just one look from him can make Jared change completely! And Dean is the absolute Alpha Male for me :D :D

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

This was just my own personal thoughts on what I felt on the subject and why bottom!Jared/Sam just doesn't work for me specifically. That's just my thought on it. No fiction I have read has ever really convinced me of Jared/Sam being a predominant bottom and I guess a big part of that comes from aggressive/dominant alpha characteristics I see in Jared and Sam while I see Jensen and Dean as being very submissive and even quite reserved/meek/shy.

These are all archetypes persay we don't really know them we can only glimpse what we know of them from cons, pictures, gag reels, interviews and other such things.

As to the bottom Jared fics I have read they seem to either go in one or two ways. They just somehow say that Jared wants to be dominated but don't go in depth in why he wants to be dominated or why he wants to bottom. They just write it as typical which I admitted above doesn't really work for me as a reader.

Or the writer diminishes Jared into a weakling by removing all of his personal strengths like his physical muscles, his out going personality or limit him in some other way to where Jared has to be the weaker/subservient character and I ask myself what's the point? Because this character doesn't even remotely resemble Jared, he at most is just a name and a body used to write original fiction, which is fine but what's the point of using J2? The audience? The exposure? I don't know. That leaves me with a very bad experience because it just reinforces that Jared is the top more or less because they had to diminish him in some way (by either taking away his personality traits, altering his physical body, etc.) in order to let Jensen top in the first place. They either ignore the more aggressive aspects of Jared's personality or they alter them in order to fit with a more dominant, controlling Jensen (which I personally don't see but for me that isn't even the biggest problem).

I personally find from what I read in bottom Jensen fics, Jensen's personality is for the most part in tact. He is grumpy, always needs his coffee, isn't a morning person, is a sarcastic smart ass, shy, a little ornery but still all in all a good caring person underneath the grit. So I can't say I ever felt that Jensen was short changed in the bottom Jensen fics I have read. I feel this isn't the case with bottom Jared fics from what I have seen. But I admit that I am bias. But from what I have seen a lot of bottom!Jared fics seem to go out of their way to lower Jared in some way or form of importance, be it socially (slave, sex worker, poor college student) while in some way or form pushing Jensen up in order to give him reasons to top Jensen is usually found to be a rich white collar worker and in generally is always seen as being above Jared in bottom!Jared fics, which makes me think that it's the writers way of giving an excuse to let Jensen be the top. There is seemingly no equality in their relationships.

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

As to Sam and Dean, I never thought of Dean as an alpha male top. His overtly macho attitude always seemed to me to be Dean overcompensating for his resulting loneliness because he wanted his family together again and didn't know how to connect with people. Dean to me is just too subservient to his father and too maternal of Sam to buy Dean topping Sam I guess. Sam though is very independent, makes his choices and fights for what he wants we saw this by the way he fought John continuously while Dean took orders. Sam left while Dean stayed. Sam went after what he wanted while Dean passive aggressively sulked while Sam did what he wanted. I just don't see Dean as being very aggressive and dominant, where as Sam very much is. Dean for the most part just wants Sam. Dean needs Sam more then Sam needs Dean. However I think Sam may want Dean more then Dean wants Sam. For that reason alone I could see Dean bottoming for Sam to stop Sam from leaving because as I said before I just don't think Sam would willingly bottom for anyone.

I find Dean to be very needy and desperately hungry for any affection he can get which is why I see him as the ultimate bottom in SPN. I don't see Dean as an alpha at all. His wants and needs always come second to those he cares about, he is very nurturing and he has this desperate need to be loved back as well. He falls apart when he thinks his family doesn't love him. Where as both Sam and John were able to go on even though they believed they hated eachother.

I guess I just don't see Jensen as controlled, possessive or growly. Jared I think is very possessive with his mandhandling, constant hands all over people and just in general his very warm nature. He is very dominant in conversations, body language, he teases Jensen endlessly, etc. While it usually takes Jensen a moment or so to warm up and that's usually when he is in Jared's presence. When he doesn't have a buffer he is very tame and isn't as open as when he is with Jared. I guess that's why I see him as submissive and shy because I think he has even admitted that he doesn't like crowds, or talking in public, etc. Jensen has even admitted that Jared has helped him come out of his shell more because he has had a hard time interacting publicly with fans.

That being said obviously people like what they like and I don't begrudge that at all. But I my problem with them stems from the fact that they seem to have to go the extra mile in order to short-change Jared enough so that Jensen is the top, and I wind up thinking to myself what's the point of writing J2 if you are going to remove everything that makes the character the character?

[rraz45.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! It is so hard to find people who agree. Dean is THE bottom for me, and I will not read fics where he tops. I just can't see it. Sam would not be desperate for Dean like a bottom. Even in Cas/Dean, I still see Cas as hte top (which is a pairing even harder to find Dean bottoming in).

[wednesday-d.livejournal.com]

We kind of got over this once but let me say this: wanting to be penetrated doesn't mean he's the needy one or the submissive one. Penetration is just a form of sex not a trait of personality! So yeah, I love Jared being on the receiving end of things, but I also love him being extroverted and loud and obnoxious and taking the lead to conversations and stuff. I also kind of see this as a balance, you know. Jared may be the loud one and Jensen may be the more quiet one but he's the one topping, kinda like there must be a counterbalance. I don't even know if this makes any sense :D

I don't think that for Jared to submit he needs to be injured or incapacitated. If he wants to submit, it would be easy for Jensen to make him do so, it's all a matter of will. And Jensen is kind of controlling in a quite subtle way. I have read a couple of fics where Jared was the kind of dominant type de facto, but he was getting sick of everyone just assuming this and he wanted for once to be the one protected taken care, he wanted that feeling because he'd never felt it before. It was kinda hot ;)

And by the way, 80% of the fics I read, Jared is more or less in charatcer, meaning he's loud and boisterous, pushy and demanding but still sort of silly and really adorable!

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

wanting to be penetrated doesn't mean he's the needy one or the submissive one. Penetration is just a form of sex not a trait of personality

I agree except for most fics that I have read which have made this characterization of Jared, which I find usually happens when I tend to read Bottom Sam or Bottom Jared. The neediness, lust and desperation to be penetrated is almost always there and that's something that I always have a problem with in terms of reading because I just don't view Jared as being the needy bottom who wants to be penetrated all the time and I find myself asking why? in that instance. What makes him want it so bad to where he would beg for it and so on and so forth? What swings the power dynamic in Jensen/Dean's favor so to speak? With Sam I don't find this to be plausible as I said before with you I can't believe Sam would ever willingly give up control in a place or area where he is so dominant in. But with Jensen and Jared I ask myself why does Jared want to submit and usually this question is left unanswered a lot of the time. I can understand it with JDM because well everyone bottoms for JDM LOL. Like I said before I can believe Jared would be curious enough to want to experience it and I think JDM would want the daddy role and would push for it.

In most cases where I have read bottom Jared he just constantly wants to be penetrated and that's it. There often is no reason given why. Or in other cases there is usually a some kind of hindrance which makes Jared topping out of the question(he is de-aged and given less experience/is less able to penetrate in some ways de-masculinized, he is tied up or in some way forced to receive, he is hurt/injured which makes topping less possible, he is enslaved, experiences muscle degeneration or some kind of personality change where he is made to be submissive) and then it's a forgone conclusion that he is the bottom just because he is meek and won't contest or challenge his partner in topping. Which I just don't find interesting because well that's not Jared. What the author or writer is describing is not the characterization that fandom knows him to be and I am foremost interested in reading J2. Not one J and an OC.

For the most part I have no problem with Jared bottoming once in awhile usually because from what I have seen in most top!Jared fics where they switch they don't change the character to let Jensen top. Jared is usually either curious or he is giving Jensen a gift when he bottoms. Jared is letting Jensen top and it makes a lot of sense to me that it would happen in such a way where Jared would want to experience something and shake things up. But usually in most bottom!Jared fics I find that not to be the case and in most cases they usually have Jared dis-empowered so Jensen has a reason to top.

[wednesday-d.livejournal.com]

I guess what I really don't understand is this: In most cases where I have read bottom Jared he just constantly wants to be penetrated and that's it. There often is no reason given why. What do you mean why? Why should Jensen want to beg and be the needy one then? There is no 'why'. Jared would simply enjoy the act of being on the receiving end. What's more, I really don't think that the majority of bottom!Jared fics are as bad as the bottom!Jensen ones. When Jared is hurt or in need of comfort, that doesn't automatically mean he's the bottom one. And usually he still remains as strong as someone in his position is to be expected. Jensen however is treated like a woman...I find this very unfair hahaha!

everyone bottoms for JDM LOL hahaha yeah, but is this because of the age thing? Because otherwise I never thought of JDM as very aggressive or dominant :/

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

I am not necessarily saying that Jensen is always going to be submissive. Just that there usually is a reason behind why Jensen wants to be penetrated though. The author usually establishes that Jensen has a size kink or is attracted to Jared's muscles, his strength, or whatever and it's established why Jensen wants to be penetrated quite early in the story and well I can get behind it so to speak because I can identify WHY Jensen wants it more or less. With most bottom Jared fics I usually don't end up getting that why so to speak. He either just happens to be the bottom or he is disempowered to where he can't top and has to bottom because of process of elimination. Which is fine I guess for those who like reading bottom Jared but it doesn't exactly sell me on the kink so to speak.

As to Jensen treated like a woman I can't remember reading fics where he was immasculated so to speak, but then again I am often turned off by most fics that involve poor characterization, feminization and cross dressing. In most of the fics that I have read Jensen maintains all of his usual qualities. He is grumpy, curt, sarcastic, shy, reserved, dry-witted but more or less still a good person even if he leans a bit on the anti-social side. When I have read bottom Jared fics though I always feel like Jared is being some way diminished be it in his personality, his physical description in his stature or by some outward circumstances by the plot within the story and it usually all aimed to make him a less imposing figure so that Jensen can top. Most of the time when it's equal from what I have seen is when Jared predominantly tops and then ends up wanting to experiment with bottoming which makes sense to me as a reason more or less.

I don't know JDM just strikes me as being growly, brawny man masculine and having all this experience which would make everyone around him want to bottom for him. He does strike me as being in control in the situation even if he is cool and affection. JDM is a ladies man too, he has two children by two different women. He gets around!

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

I am not sure if you are still in fandom but I felt like commenting on this. But when I read about size kink I am like come on if I only read the bottom!Jensen fics and believe then I would've never known Jensen is 6'1. What I meant to say is both of them are tall and masculine but the bottom!Jensen fics treat him like a virgin flower/damsel in distress which I find unrealistic. and half of the bottom !Jensen fics explain in detail Jared's masculinity, height, strength, muscles while forgetting that Jensen is still there. Then I remember real life facts like Jensen can outrun everyone in the crew, likes doing his stunts and athletic and cannot continue reading.
For me the personality of a person dictates there roles in life and Jensen never strikes me as submissive. In fact I have always felt that he likes to control/plan his life and that's is not compensating. We can agree that neither of us are experts in gay sex and dynamics but it irritates me when an author makes a character just because they are shorter disregarding all other characteristics. I don't think its required for Jared to be disempowered to become the bottom in their relationship as it is just natural for them to follow the dynamics based on their personalities. In the con videos i see Jensen taking care of Jared and not vice/versa.
Okay now i am laughing because i am talking about a hypothetical relationship based on some of the glimpses we had in the lives of these people. It sounds absurd but i think my take on this shows more about my outlook on the world. So if you are still in fandom would like to hear from you.

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comment.

I haven't actively engaged in the SPN fandom since S6, I do still read a bit of SPN RPS though under my energytouchwalking delicious tag.

As to fics regarding Jensen's masculinity, I have read tons of bottom Jensen and it's rare for me to see Jensen being changed a great deal or taken out of context solely for the point of him bottoming. Even in kink fills I feel his general personality/persona stays true to what he is known in fandom as. That said some of my favorite stories in fandom have Jensen incredibly normal and masculinized as a figure. Reinvent Love by mournthewicked, makeittakeit's Screw You We're From Texas, fleshflutter and tebtosca's works all offer a finer point of definition in terms of the kind of bottom Jensen I usually end up enjoying and reading. There he isn't one dimensional as a virgin or an ingenuish figure.

Overall, I think reading a shy Jensen is definitely plausible given the person that Jensen is. Is it an extrapolation for fiction? Yes, but I definitely do believe that Jensen is shy and so that aspect of his character is being utilized. Jensen is much more likely to go with the flow, sit back and let others speak before he does. He is very reclusive and introverted in that matter, which leads to the belief of a more submissive personality and less dominating figure for stories. More than that Jensen also gets really nervous and it's been said that it's really bad for him at times to be in crowds(especially at Conventions also in parties like his stuttered speech at the People's Choice Awards)again that ends up standing against him as an imposing figure for kink fills, sexual stories, alpha/beta/omega stories, non-con stories and dom/sub stories.

Like I said before a lot of the time when I read bottom Jensen there is no question in particular if Jensen is masculine or is able to do things so him jogging, doing stunts, etc. isn't really a qualm in those aspects. He can still be who he is and bottom without it being a hindrance or needing an explanation in a story.

However usually when Jared/Sam ends up bottoming it's in reference to a power dynamic. Again it seems like with most authors when they have an adult Jared bottom, they feel they need to disempower this 6 and a half foot male who can bench press upwards of 300 lbs - which is why I can't bring myself to read it. It's not Jared that's being written at that point. Jared becomes shy, he loses his talkative and extraverted nature, he becomes sullen, less friendly, he loses his physiological musculature, he becomes shorter, his character is diminished in some way and his vibrancy as a personality is muted for him to become submissive and meek. Usually so Jensen can top him. So in the end you have a Jared that is sick, injured, weak or ends up subjugated in some way through a power dynamic like slavery or he becomes de-aged, etc. All in order to get Jared to bottom, and at that point I think that you've already lost the character.

I think we converge on the idea that personalities mesh well with the portrayal of the characters, and I guess for me I can't imagine this out going guy who has a lot of leadership qualities, is incredibly assertive and out-going, active as a needy submissive bottom. Jared just leads Jensen in so many things when we see them together. Jared is the one who takes the lead in con talks, Jensen moved under Jared's roof for years, Jared initiates their relationship and consistently takes the first step in a lot of big things, while Jensen just shyly smiles from the sidelines and blushes or he waits for Jared to take action and approach him. When Jensen is the one who gets bogged down by a hard scene it's Jared who is the one who cheers him up, that kind of proactive nature -- that kind of push seems toppy and dominant to me.

I do agree that Jensen is a care taker, which kind of reinforces my ideology of if this were ever to happen their roles would be top Jared/bottom Jensen. Even with their children, you have Jared's first born being a boy, and Jensen's first born being a girl. Not that this is hardcore evidence but I just think this leans a certain way and fandom has latched onto these ideologies.

Of course Jared's size!kink is going to be a factor here as well for some authors.