Why does fandom hate Sam so much?
Jul. 9th, 2011 02:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
isoughtyouout I honestly just want to know why. There seems to be a lot of Sam hatred in the SPN community and I just don't get it.
Was browing IMDB and this subject ended up coming up the below isn't my post but I found it interesting none the less:
How is Dean and John asking, no telling Sam to stay any less selfish?
I'm exhausted arguing this. It's clear that you care more about Dean's wants and needs rather then about trying to understand the fact that Sam is a human being who also had wants and desires. A part of that was for him to go to school and to have a normal life. That is not selfish. That is normal to want things for yourself and for you to go out and get them. Mary isn't selfish for leaving her family and wanting a life with John. John isn't selfish for leaving his parents and wanting to start a life with Mary. And Sam isn't selfish for wanting his own space and wanting to find his own way. Dean isn't selfish for wanting to stay with Ben and Lisa, so on and so forth.
It's clear that many of Dean's fans wanted Sam to stay with Dean because Dean was lonely. Aparently that means more to them then Sam's growth as an individual and Sam's own need to be normal. I understand it because for most Dean fans the world starts and ends with him and they want him to be happy and anything that clashes with that is instantly antagonized and seen as a threat. They want Sam to be Dean's yes man, and they want Sam to do everything for Dean and live for Dean because to them that is what Sam would do if he truly loved Dean. Never mind the fact that this would make Sam unhappy and that Sam has needs and wants just like every other person. Never mind the fact that this is ridiculously unhealthy. Instead they think that Dean's needs are more important so Sam should suffer without. They want Sam to completely deny himself and his wants and his dreams and stay with Dean because that is what Dean secretly wanted. To Sam to stay with him and want nothing outside of hunting.
Since Sam did not do that, since Sam did leave and since Sam did carve out a life for himself separate from Dean these same fans who love Dean hate Sam for it. That's the only thing that makes sense at this point. Basically you are angry at Sam because he is not Dean. It's not that he is selfish (in the typical sense of the word) it's that he didn't choose what Dean and John wanted over what he wanted which was independence and a life of his own. I will never understand why that is enough to hate him for.
Was browing IMDB and this subject ended up coming up the below isn't my post but I found it interesting none the less:
How is Dean and John asking, no telling Sam to stay any less selfish?
I'm exhausted arguing this. It's clear that you care more about Dean's wants and needs rather then about trying to understand the fact that Sam is a human being who also had wants and desires. A part of that was for him to go to school and to have a normal life. That is not selfish. That is normal to want things for yourself and for you to go out and get them. Mary isn't selfish for leaving her family and wanting a life with John. John isn't selfish for leaving his parents and wanting to start a life with Mary. And Sam isn't selfish for wanting his own space and wanting to find his own way. Dean isn't selfish for wanting to stay with Ben and Lisa, so on and so forth.
It's clear that many of Dean's fans wanted Sam to stay with Dean because Dean was lonely. Aparently that means more to them then Sam's growth as an individual and Sam's own need to be normal. I understand it because for most Dean fans the world starts and ends with him and they want him to be happy and anything that clashes with that is instantly antagonized and seen as a threat. They want Sam to be Dean's yes man, and they want Sam to do everything for Dean and live for Dean because to them that is what Sam would do if he truly loved Dean. Never mind the fact that this would make Sam unhappy and that Sam has needs and wants just like every other person. Never mind the fact that this is ridiculously unhealthy. Instead they think that Dean's needs are more important so Sam should suffer without. They want Sam to completely deny himself and his wants and his dreams and stay with Dean because that is what Dean secretly wanted. To Sam to stay with him and want nothing outside of hunting.
Since Sam did not do that, since Sam did leave and since Sam did carve out a life for himself separate from Dean these same fans who love Dean hate Sam for it. That's the only thing that makes sense at this point. Basically you are angry at Sam because he is not Dean. It's not that he is selfish (in the typical sense of the word) it's that he didn't choose what Dean and John wanted over what he wanted which was independence and a life of his own. I will never understand why that is enough to hate him for.
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Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 03:38 am (UTC)I think from my earlier discussion he seems to be largely disliked because he is 'selfish' and I don't mean that in the normal way, as much as the compared to Dean way. He is selfish because he doesn't constantly put his brothers feelings first and causes Dean pain and so he deserves to be hated for causing Dean hardship. Pretty much everything else just stems from that and becomes fair game to pick him apart. I am guessing fans who empathize more with Dean hate to see him unhappy and they see Sam as a scapegoat to release all of their anger on because that's all that they can do.
I personally don't think that is rational though. I love both boys and what is special to me first and foremost is their relationship and their interactions to each other. I don't think either Dean or Sam is easy to hate. I get that Dean is the character whose view point the audiences sees more often then not but at the same time does that automatically mean you have to hate Sam? I personally don't think so.
I guess I have to disagree about Sam receiving so much love. If anything I think Sam is particularly isolated and has been with each passing season. He never got to know his mother, he felt his father hated him, his girlfriend died and the other relationship he found himself in was a manipulation. I don't think those are in anyway healthy relationships. Is it because Sam is more independent and not as needy? Maybe because he is seen to be stronger viewers don't find him as sympathetic?
I actually think he is a pretty sad character all things considered. No less sad then Dean and no less emotional. I actually think Sam is the more tragic brother between the two of them. For instance he always wanted a normal life but was never able to have it and all of his happier memories are tainted by demons who were always lurking behind the shadows preparing him for Lucifer. Even his prom date was a demon. He was the vessel of the devil. I actually think Sam is quite deep we just never get a chance to see into his head.
I also kind of disagree on him getting handed everything. Though Dean was supportive of him (as much as any older sibling could be) that's not a substitute for a stable family nor is it enough for any person to sustain themselves on in regards to emotional development.
I guess I just don't see why loving Dean means you have to hate Sam.
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 03:47 am (UTC)i think with any brother relationship and any loving relationship, there's no equal love. there's no two same brothers who share same traits, but who are from the same family and share DNA. similar yet so different.
also, i think ppl tend to favor dean is because some traits of him fit into the stereotypical type of angsty male who has man pain and who's vulnerable but seems strong. SPN did really well with that, but sam they did a better job of a sad man. if you get my gist...
and ur right, he seems more independent so ppl tend to turn away from that. it's even like that in real life.
off the topic, i'm really hoping sera will got more into the sam storyline. eric was more into dean i think.
ps. i'm trying to spread sam love (even alot of my spn buddies are DEAN FTW! D: )
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 04:01 am (UTC)I agree with this and in most conversations it usually ends up being about the fact that Sam doesn't love Dean in the same way Dean loves him and it in some way winds up being about control, obedience, and guilt instead of about true love for the individual. Sam and Dean are both messed up and they both have a hard time showing each other that they love each other as men and it's generally very messy. But the truth is both Dean and Sam fall short on what the other wants them to be and in that measure they both 'fail' so to speak, yet it seems that Sam is the only one charged. Which is quite odd to me because it's just another argument of hypocrisy.
i'm really hoping sera will got more into the sam storyline. eric was more into dean i think.
I don't think it even matters at this point the status quo has already been established and Dean in the inside character we see things through. I just hope that the years of syndication far off will be kinder to Sam. Lord knows he needs all the help he can get.
i'm trying to spread sam love (even alot of my spn buddies are DEAN FTW!
I make it a point not to favor one over the other. But Sam often times gets my sympathy and tugs on my protective side just because there is such strong animosity towards him. But really it's their relationship that I favor. There wouldn't be a Sam and Dean without either of them. I just wish both could love them if not equally then just love them both as much as they can. But yes please continue the Sam love. I would love to help.
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 04:16 am (UTC)the sera thing, i think you made my point my understandable than i did. that was what i was trying to say. lol!
and the favouring, i like you said, no sam, no dean. yes sam, yes dean etc...
like you, it is the relationship that i look into . their love is not the normal american fam, its messy, painful and deep. well, i think it runs deeper than "normal" fams. and they do love each other to their max capacity.
i just felt that everyone hails dean and misses sam who's equally important and THERE on the show!
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 04:20 am (UTC)Agreed completely on Sam being the step-child of supernatural. I kept thinking how it must suck for Jared. He works hard for this show as well and yet seems so often overlooked.
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-10 04:23 am (UTC)i know right. he does work super hard for it and he gets looked at for being jared, but for being sam; well, looked at all for the wrong reasons. stop picking on him!
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-23 06:23 am (UTC)As to the Sam hate issue I personally I think this is the only theory which holds water at this point, at least from what I have seen. Most of the time when you engage with viewers who hate Sam it's usually because they are fans of Dean who feel Sam is 'being mean to him' which usually consists of Sam not taking Dean's side and not taking his orders. They will bring up him choosing Ruby over Dean (never mind that Dean chose to confide with Castiel at several points and was meeting with Cas behind Sam's back as well), Sam beating Dean up in Levee (when Dean has punched Sam in Bloodlust, Metamorhosis and You Can't Handle The Truth when he was unprovoked) and also bring up Sam insulting Dean (yet they don't notice that Dean teased Sam endlessly about Stanford, has called him selfish and has rubbed salt in his wounds in Everybody Loves A Clown, Metamorphosis and Levee). The truth is everything that is said against Sam could just as easily be flipped on it's head to be used against Dean as well. Neither of them are blameless and both of them have hurt one another. Their relationship is painful and dysfunctional on both sides and both Dean and Sam love each other fiercely so why the need to attack Sam who is the best part of Dean?
Honestly I find saint Dean to be such a joke now. It's like he has no flaws. He is whiter then white and is constantly written to be the one moral compass of SPN and that just makes him so incredibly boring. I do admit that it's hard to like Dean because well he just comes out seeming so self-righteous, sanctimonious and in several ways just smug because well he is always right and everyone compared to him just pales in comparison. He doesn't even have real faults that anyone can blame him for or hold him accountable on. We can't blame him for breaking the first seal because well he was tortured for ten years and he is broken up about it, we can't blame him for putting Ben and Lisa in danger because Cas snapped his fingers and everything is made better again, we can't blame him for wanting to say yes to Micheal because well it's all Sam's fault because he released Lucifer so he has to be proactive, etc. Well when you do that and you don't have a character in control of their own actions and don't give their actions any consequences then what's the point of trying to make them a hero? They have no failures and they have no faults. You end up creating a Mary Sue character.
I long for the Dean in seasons 1-3 who had flaws, made mistakes and wasn't seen as the golden boy of all things right, shiny and good. It's getting to the point now where Dean's purity and righteousness is a thing of profound parody.
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-24 07:12 am (UTC)It turns me off to Dean and Supernatural at times because it's just completely ridiculous and asinine to me.
I think the writers could benefit immensely by having Dean do something wrong and not have it turn up roses for him immediately. The only thing they do is create a world where things are so black and white that no bit of grey is worth mentioning and well how boring is that? If I wanted to watch Charmed I would watch Charmed. With Sam it's not even about his actions so much about how we never get a chance to see the progress of the character. He just changes and they give us so little insight into the change and how it effects him as a person. We don't ever get to see his own personal journey for anything we only get vague impressions and jagged pieces of a missing puzzle and we have to work it all out from there.
Re: Thanks for the Comment
Date: 2011-07-26 11:28 am (UTC)Does he really though? A lot of Dean fans say how Dean is unimportant to the myth arc and it's all about Sam because Sam is important for plot purposes, but in terms of actual story and view point we see very little from his point of view. Sam may be important in terms of being Lucifer's vessel and being important to the demon community but outside of that what's his story really? We get to see so little from his point of view and we get crumbs of emotional feeling from him but well that's it. We don't see much of anything else so what prize is that? If anything at all. Sam isn't even treated as a fully fleshed out character and hasn't been treated that way since maybe s2.
Why does Sam change so instantly without any progression? First it was the addiction to demon blood, which came out of nowhere, then it was Sam and his anger issues which also came out of nowhere, and now he is atoning for things he couldn't control and had no chance of stopping in the first place (Lucifer's Seals, his actions as Soulless Sam). It's all just so annoying because we don't get to see how these things genuinely effect him and how these storylines should progress into actual arcs. Where is the beginning middle and end to these stories? Why do these stories not matter? Why don't we see them happening on screen? Why are these stories not important? sigh.
I agree completely on Sam being a virtual non-entity in the last two seasons, what's the point? Dean is the main focus and nothing else really matters outside of that. Sam only exist as an extra sensitive appendage to Dean. He has no life or meaning outside of him in terms of show commitment and relevance. Castiel is really treated no better, he exists solely to bail Dean out of trouble and has no meaning outside of that in terms of story. It's obvious the shows writers have no clue what to do with him now that they are trying to get out of the angel storylines. Cas holds even less meaning then Sam does, because at least Sam still has the brother bond which is the foundation of this show. Castiel doesn't really have anything anchoring him to this show.
I feel bad for Sam's character because it feels like his development has been stunted (at best) since the beginning of season 3 and he hasn't had a chance to really develop or change. He has been wiped out of all of the characteristics, salient personality traits that he came in with due to his endless brooding (which was warranted) and minimized airtime and story relevance. You are completely right when you say he is passive, he very nearly is. He doesn't really seem to impact much in terms of the bigger picture of the show and the story.
I agree about the poor characterization points. I think even Dean now is a watered down version of himself, he doesn't really have fun anymore. He isn't the lovable oaf he once was and he isn't the womanizer who was adorable from the former seasons. He has had all the fun sucked out of him and now he is just this caricature who always does the right thing and is some holier than thou entity who knows everything and always does the right thing. He's not human. He is a Sue because everything he does is perfect. Cas ran out of usefulness as soon as s4 ended and the show has basically admitted they don't know what else to do with him by making him evil in the s6 finale. There is nothing else for them to do with the character and he was basically useless in s5, he was barely relevant in s6 aside from the last three episodes and even that was sketchy at best because it showed that Castiel was always supposed to be a temporary character and he has by far outlived his usefulness as a character.
I agree with Lisa, she wasn't even a real person. She was just a plot puppet insert.