Why does fandom hate Sam so much?

[isoughtyouout]

 I honestly just want to know why. There seems to be a lot of Sam hatred in the SPN community and I just don't get it. 

Was browing IMDB and this subject ended up coming up the below isn't my post but I found it interesting none the less: 


How is Dean and John asking, no telling Sam to stay any less selfish?

I'm exhausted arguing this. It's clear that you care more about Dean's wants and needs rather then about trying to understand the fact that Sam is a human being who also had wants and desires. A part of that was for him to go to school and to have a normal life. That is not selfish. That is normal to want things for yourself and for you to go out and get them. Mary isn't selfish for leaving her family and wanting a life with John. John isn't selfish for leaving his parents and wanting to start a life with Mary. And Sam isn't selfish for wanting his own space and wanting to find his own way. Dean isn't selfish for wanting to stay with Ben and Lisa, so on and so forth.

It's clear that many of Dean's fans wanted Sam to stay with Dean because Dean was lonely. Aparently that means more to them then Sam's growth as an individual and Sam's own need to be normal. I understand it because for most Dean fans the world starts and ends with him and they want him to be happy and anything that clashes with that is instantly antagonized and seen as a threat. They want Sam to be Dean's yes man, and they want Sam to do everything for Dean and live for Dean because to them that is what Sam would do if he truly loved Dean. Never mind the fact that this would make Sam unhappy and that Sam has needs and wants just like every other person. Never mind the fact that this is ridiculously unhealthy. Instead they think that Dean's needs are more important so Sam should suffer without. They want Sam to completely deny himself and his wants and his dreams and stay with Dean because that is what Dean secretly wanted. To Sam to stay with him and want nothing outside of hunting.

Since Sam did not do that, since Sam did leave and since Sam did carve out a life for himself separate from Dean these same fans who love Dean hate Sam for it. That's the only thing that makes sense at this point. Basically you are angry at Sam because he is not Dean. It's not that he is selfish (in the typical sense of the word) it's that he didn't choose what Dean and John wanted over what he wanted which was independence and a life of his own. I will never understand why that is enough to hate him for.

Comments

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

Hey i just stumbled across your LJ whilst reading a fanfic i didn't agree with and i liked your response. Anyway i am a Samgirl and proud of it. I love Dean as well and i love the dysfunctional co-dependent relationship the boys have(had?). I just don't see why some fans have to tear one brother down to raise another. I agree with a lot of what you and some of the other comments have said about Sam's emotional development, it has stopped and everything that should be emotionally affecting to him (Dad dying, Madison, being possessed, him dying,watching Dean die, the deal, what happened after he scratched the wall in 6x13) and its just glossed over with 'i'm fine' it's just the writers should have Sam talk more. The one major issue i have with the writers is that they beat the dead horse until its mush, they realise that people like Dean crying and emoting, they shove it in our faces, they realise that everyone (vocal fans) likes Cas/Dean so they make slash jokes and make Dean give the whole stupid,out of nowhere fake family speech. The show needs to learn Balance, they have two leads not one,just deal with Dean's issues and make him have that spark back, give sam more emotional moments again, make them good hunters again, make them enjoy the job, give them brotherly moments again like pranking, or joking, (that's why i love frontierland just that whole conversation at the beginning with Sam Colts journal was so cute, and sam wearing the shirt dean brought and agreeing to go along with Dean's plan and Dean being giddy and fun again)

Anyway i agree both boys have faults and the show isn't perfect and i love canon dean, in show i love both Dean and Sam, but when i read comments it just really stops me from enjoying the show and it stops me from enjoying Dean. So even though i've been in fandom for a year, i'm going to stop (try lol) reading most people's comments and just read spoilers, read good fanfiction (preferably hurt sam, and awesome big bro Dean) and just read people's journals who i like. Its better for my blood pressure that way because this argument dean vs sam is never going to stop, so i'm just sick of it.

Again i agree with the issue of Sam hate as i don't get why they hate Sam so much, i've tried to understand it but i can't, like i try to understand why everyone loves Cas. So i'm not going to, i just wanna enjoy the show and enjoy fandom. I still have some hope with Sam especially after the hell wall has fallen that we'll finally get some talking between the boys and emotional development from Sam.

See i have more problems with the fact that the fandom and the show seems to gloss over and whitewash over castiels actions - just don't get me started on Castiel.


Sorry this is so long but it seems to be hard to be in this fandom when you're favourite is hated (which makes me love him more as he's the underdog and i love sam anyway) and everyone loves the character you hate(Castiel- Deans replacement brother- which makes me hate him more lol)

Again sorry for the length and thank you so much for writing what i mostly feel. Thanks.

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

Thank's for commenting! I'm glad you found me lol. Which fan fic was it if you don't mind me asking?

I agree completely on giving us some of Sam's perspective. There should be a lot more of it I think. There is so much inside him probably bursting to come out. I get that they want Sam to brood, angst and internalize what he is going through but I think they could have a wealth of material to work with if they opened him up to the audience more often. It doesn't even really have to be to Dean specifically just let the viewers know what he is thinking, what he is going through and what he is feeling. There is so much depth just waiting to be tapped into.

I will have to say fandom is horrible, or at least most of it in the SPN forums. Television Without Pity is perhaps the worst, but it's pretty bad everywhere I find. It makes me not even want to participate in it because there is so much hatred and vitriol out there. Most of the time I just make my case on a weekly episode and then I don't comeback until the next week it's just that bad. It makes me not want to read, talk or hear about SPN. I have taken much of my love over to Jared and Jensen and reading about interviews, cons, youtube videos, etc. because it's just not worth it to get into the fan wars. I read an article the other day about episode 7x05 and looked at the comments and they quickly descended into a Dean!girl cesspool of hateful comments about how the show is all about Sam and how they hated him so much because Dean has been slighted. I just shook my head and pressed the 'x' button.

I agree completely on the Dean portion of the fandom seeing Castiel as a Sam substitute/surrogate and that's why they love them. Because Castiel is subservient to Dean and exists solely to help him. I don't hate Castiel I just don't feel anything toward him. He is just there. I understand why he is popular (see reason above) but I don't even see him as a humane entity. But I do love Sam, and I think he is a very sympathetic character who gets so much hate for not being Dean, the one every wants and loves.

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

I'm glad i found you too - yay. It's so good to see someone with similar and the same view points as you in the fandom. Oh the fan fic was the therapy one -Ouroboros by Gedry- where both Sam and Dean go to therapy. I thought the authors attempts were fairly fair in dealing with the Winchester's problems but with having said Sam was the most selfish person ever ( which i don't agree with at all sure sam has selfish tendencies but so does Dean - the whole deal was selfish-) and me having some problems with the characterisations such as Sam hitting Dean twice in the face i just didn't agree with it.(i hope it's ok that i wrote the title and the name of the fanfic as i'm fairly new to LJ and don't wanna seem like a bitch i did leave a comment but i hate being rude to people lol)

Oh yeah i totally agree with the potential to see inside Sam *sigh* but i have some hope with season 7 with the hell wall collapsing and all. I think some Dean fans are also fed up that Dean has become the more emo brother and less proactive and a badass hunter like he used to be. It's called balance writers.

Oh yeah sometimes the fandom can be so horrible that it sucks the fun right out of the show. I mean i remember reading some good stuff about Sam this season and the first thought that came into my head was 'the extreme Dean girls are going to hate this and tear this apart.' So i can't even enjoy reading some stuff about my favourite character now. But it's my own fault i think, i've let them influence me and i've let them wreck the show for me so i'm trying to stop it, i'm trying to just read stuff i like, read spoilers and just ignore comments.

Oh television without pity is a Sam girl hell, i've been on there once, looked at the comments, raged silently and just went off. I've never been back there since and i'm never going back. Do you still post there? There's better places to go as sometimes i read comments on supernatural.tv and the cw forum has got a mixture of all fans so it might not be as negative there. I lurk there at the moment as i just can't be bothered to get into the whole Sam vs Dean or Sam vs castiel debates.

Oh i love Sam and like i said i love canon Dean but i don't like Dean in fandom, i don't like Castiel, in both show and fandom. I agree that some extreme posters who put their favourite characters on pedestals and don't see any fault in them at all are the worst and just make me hate fandom.

I love Sam i do, i know he has his faults which make him more complex, beautiful, realistic and human and just awesome. I love that about him. It's make him to me more relatable that he makes mistakes, that he's not perfect, but he gets back up again and he tries and takes responsibility for stuff that he's done unlike Castiel who blames everybody else but himself. So i'd rather have Sam standing by me then be put on a pedestal. I still don't understand and will never understand why, it seems anyway, so much fans hate Sam. I never will understand it and to me hating one of the two brothers, one of the two leads just makes me wonder why you're watching a show that is essentially about Dean and Sam and their relationship. It makes no sense to me. Sure Sam's my favourite but that doesn't mean i hate Dean or that i have to put Dean down to raise sam up. Ugh.

I think people hate Sam because he sometimes hurts Dean. Like sometimes i will get pissed at Dean when he hits Sam such as in 4x04 and hurt Sam by saying horrible things to him, but that doesn't mean i hate Dean. It's natural and realistic, that's what siblings do. That's what people do. I get why people get defensive of their characters i do, i will defend Sam against anybody, but that doesn't mean that just because i love Sam has to mean i have to hate Dean. Why is it always one or the other with these people?

Having Sam and Dean be the way they are is essential, they compliment each other with their different views and personalities. And i'm sorry but Dean wouldn't be as funny and cute with his one liners and eating habits and childish glee over stuff if sam was exactly the same, like Sam wouldn't seem as empathic if Dean was the same in cases instead of being rude and blunt to people during their cases.

Wow this is long. Sorry.

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

I think telling the fic comment that led you here is completely fine. As long as it's constructive criticism I don't see the problem and after all it's just an opinion as long as it's not needlessly cruel I don't understand why writers would be offended. It's an art medium after all. Yeah I liked Ouroboros a lot for the most part but I didn't understand some of her criticisms about the Sam character. He was saying a lot of real things in the middle of the story and then all of the sudden the author just out of nowhere called him selfish and narcissistic. I just didn't understand that. I also think it is very out of character for Sam to want to solve his issues with violence for the most part. Sam was never really the brawling type. When there was a conflict between the brothers it was often Dean who usually hit Sam first (Bloodlust, Metamorphosis, You Can't Handle The Truth, etc). The only time Sam hit Dean first was in Levee from what I remember.

Sometimes I post there (TWOP) but I mostly just leave my initial thoughts on the episode and get out of there. Sometimes I will post in the character threads but I make it a point not to post their regularly, it's just a profoundly negative place for all involved. Even the fans of Dean, the show and Castiel are ridiculously negative and seem to have so much hate within themselves for so many people within the SPN fandom. It's just sad and it honestly just makes me not want to participate most of th time because it's just such a toxic environment most of the time.

I always found Sam to be an incredibly sympathetic character and all of his actions and responses IMO have been ones that a regular person would have. I think every choice he has made has been an understandable one and one that many others would arrive at if they were given the same outlook and situations. He honestly reminds me a lot of Buffy, who also did the best with what she was dealt with and who in her heart was a good character even when she lost her way. I think Sam is a hero because he persists even though he has lost everything important to him. His need for normalcy, his mother, his girlfriend, his father, etc. He continuously has his entire life turned upside down but he still fights the good fight because he wants to make a difference in the world.

But it seems that all certain fans think about is how he isn't like Dean, and that's all they are interested in. The fact that he isn't a Dean clone who has his own thoughts, ideas and makes his own decisions independent of him seems to drive certain fans to ridicule and hatred. I think the major reason why Castiel is so popular is just because he is a character who did everything Dean asked of him. So Dean fans like him just because Castiel lived to serve Dean. But that's not really a character nor a relationship I would ever want to support or am interested in.

I try to see things from both sides of the fence at all times but I agree completely with Dean hitting Sam. It surprises me that fans don't see a problem with this. They say Sam is an abuser of Dean yet they don't count all of the times where Dean has hurt Sam just as much if not more then Sam has hurt Dean. That speech he gave to Sam in both Metamorphosis and Levee where Dean calls him a monster and that Dean would want to kill him is probably the worst thing either brother has ever said to one another. And Dean still hasn't told Sam that he is sorry about it, so Sam still thinks that Dean feels that way deep inside of him.

I honestly don't know why there is such an intense need to hate Sam just because you are a fan of Dean, but well soo many do and it makes me not really want to be apart of the show/fandom a lot of the time because the logic is just so skewed, lopsided and just plain convoluted. If Dean does something it's right because well Dean did it, if Sam does something you can bet your house that it will be nitpicked until several faults will be found.

[elsewhere91.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah i totally agree about Sam, i've always been sympathetic to Sam. I mean i don't understand why people hate Sam just because he wanted his own life away from hunting or because he disagrees with Dean, or because he's not a clone of Dean. I guess that's one of lifes mysteries.

Oh i totally agree about Castiel being liked because i think the majority of Castiel lovers already had problems with sam and along comes this character who saved Dean from hell, who has a profound(gag) bond with Dean. I'm not interested in a relationship that is blatant fanservice for the vocal fans and is built on lies.

Again i know Sam hate is there but i just ignore it now, i don't agree with it, it just upsets me because most of it is imho, just stupid. The one thing however that really pisses me off is when people start insulting the actors and it seems especially prominent for Jared. I know when people insult Sam it hurts but i can ignore and dismiss it because he's a fictional character but when people start insulting a real life person because he didn't mention Jensen in every single sentence is just beyond pathetic and it makes my blood boil. I just want to scream to them how dare they insult someone to me comes of as a caring, considerate, funny man who loves his fans, just because he plays a character you don't like.

Oh yes i 100% agree with most of the fandom being hypocrites, if Dean does something it's ok, but if Sam does the exact same thing it's insulted, it's wrong etc. *sigh* But i'm not gonna let them bring me down anymore, i'm not going to let them wreck my favourite show for me lol.

Anyway do you mind if i friend you, although i'm not a fan of slash, i'm ok with people who are. I just like that you have the same opinions of Sam and fandom as me and that you like my favourite character.

Thanks.

[isoughtyouout.livejournal.com]

Friend away!

I know what you mean about people who attack Jared just because he plays Sam. I find that to be ridiculous and I just hate that he is disrespected in cons as well especially because he seems to put so much effort into trying to make it the best experience for those who go out and support the show. He really puts in effort there and puts himself out there and tries to make the fans feel apart of the show. He really gives a lot and I don't think it really gets recognized which is incredibly sad. He goes to pretty much all the cons he can go to and you can imagine how much time that probably takes him with the show filming, travel, the convention itself and everything else. Yet he still gets treated poorly by some of the fans in this fandom. He really doesn't get enough credit in my opinion. But people think that just because they paid for tickets they can treat the stars anyway they want.

It's quite sad.