isoughtyouout | Topping and Bottoming in SPN fandom and who it's with.

Entry tags:

Topping and Bottoming in SPN fandom and who it's with.

What it says on the tin can.

This has eaten my brain over the pass couple of weeks for some reason to the point where I had to get some meta in on this. I don't care if no one is reading, here are my thoughts. I've lately been seeing a rise in top!Dean/top!Jensen lately and that started to get me more introspective into thinking why Jared/Sam have always been the predominant tops. I certainly understand and see the appeal but it still is quite staggering to see so much of the writing fandom agree. Usually from what I have seen Top!Jared/Sam seems to be the norm by like 60/70%. That is not to say that Top!Jensen/Dean doesn't have a following, they are quite vocal in prompts from what I have seen and even have a very strong community that holds around 200 stories. So there certainly are fans who love to read him topping. I guess I am just trying to find out what pushes the buttons so to speak?

Here are my thoughts:

Please forgive me for the complete shallowness that is the first point. I know that this is a stereotype and that not all of this applies to every couple or even every person but I feel it also stems to the large support Top!Jared/Sam has.

I totally see it as Sam/Jared predominantly topping Dean/Jensen not only because the dude physically is like a mountain and a half tall and is ridiculously well built in terms of muscle but he just looks the type. How could he not be? I understand that this is a stereotype but when it comes down to fics when it comes to one wrestling or fighting to top my mind instantly goes to Jared/Sam considering the physique and the fact that he has about half a foot on him and most likely is in a different weight class then Dean/Jensen. He probably out weighs him by about 20-30 pounds at least.

But more then just that I also think that a personal description has stuck with him. I believe that with all those new to fandom that I went through a sensitivity period of sorts and what I read during that sensitivity period stuck with me and formed norms that I can't easily shake. This I think feeds into why certain writers write certain things, I think as readers and fandom members we go through a sensitive period of gathering information and the material we take in shapes how we view these characters indefinitely until something strong enough happens to loosen them.

For myself I have read the fandom all of the fandom staples and most of them are in my delicious. The Days in Our Lives verse written by the incomparable

titheniel and

splashpink is probably my favorite fan fiction of all time and that mostly is top!Jared/Bottom!Jensen. Same with

hemrage 's Desperate Times which was my first mpreg fic featuring Bottom!-Pregnant Jensen. It just got bigger and bigger to the point where I saw Top!Jared as canon as soon as I read

fleshflutter 's beautifully written work Bulletproof which features hooker!Jensen. I recommend all of the above they are amazing works every single one of them. Once I read these fictions I was able to see all of the traits of Top!Jared/Sam and that became some kind of law for some reason when reading SPN fandom works. It even found my way into viewing Jensen and Jared interactions to substantiate my views on why Jared tops.

Jared always talks over Jensen during cons and is the more extroverted personality. Jen defers more to Jared during conversations as well. Jared is always the one who starts telling jokes, stories and generally interacts more with the fans usually during discussions while Jensen sits back and chimes in every once and awhile and adds on and augments Jared's stories. But when it comes to conversations Jared is usually the dominant party. Jensen has also admitted that it was Jared who brings him out of his shell constantly and that Jared has helped him with his shyness. Jared is also more willing to be physically affectionate and draws Jensen in and physically handles him more.

All of this was used to justify my thoughts on Top!Jared which I think holds up personally but then they are my thoughts so I am biased. What to me just screams dominant, toppy behavior for Jared where Jensen is very shy and reserved typically may be completely flipped on it's head for a top!Jensen fan. While I see those kind of personalities as pretty salient and so it's easy to see Jared being the more top/dominant partner of the two someone may see it completely different. But I think this is where the sensitivity periods come into play that wind up scoping our views in fandom. The writers of J2 seem to write whatever top in a way which makes sense to the readers and that is often the only way the reader may be able to see these two relationship dynamics.

In the J2 situations obviously it's fiction but I do think there are certain personality traits that J2 show and Jared seems to be the more vocal and dominating of the two so it's easier to mesh that emotional part of them into a sexual relationship. It just makes sense to me.

The Dean and Sam topping debate is even messier at times but may also be easier in a way to argue. It usually comes down to Dean acting more perceived 'masculine' so he deserves to top. Or it becomes about their symbollic relationship where Dean is emotionally more needy and crippled, where Sam tops. Now I admit I came into the fandom quite late (season 3) so when I started reading (2007-2008) apparently the fandom was in a major top!Sam mode and had been like that from s2-s5 and now that is starting to decline. I can see why that quotient rose as Sam was major angsty and quite dark and Dean was quite broken. So it makes sense that Sam would top more in fiction based on their roles at that point.

But there also is more evidence it feels like. Whenever Sam has sex scenes he is incredibly forceful and dominant. Whenever he has sex be it with Madison in season two or Robo!Sam in season 6 he is always manhandling the girl. Shoving her up against something or dominating the kissing and undressing her, forcing her down, etc. Sam is very dominant in the bedroom.

Dean in sex scenes isn't depicted as such. With Anna, Lisa and Cassie he is always very tender and soft. And even in his scene with Cassie it’s her pushing him down, her undressing him and her on top of him during the scene. Cassie is the aggressor. Dean is almost never seen to be very demanding in bed. So it would correlate that Sam would be the aggressor of the two of the sex scenes we have seen from them especially for Sam (Heart, Unforgiven and I Know What You Did Last Summer). I also think Dean is more needy and may crave the submissive role more because he seems so starved for love and affection (thanks John), with his rather fragile ego. Sam is often seen as the more independent one of the two.

It just slots together and makes sense to me. It's not so much the positions as much as it compliments the core characterization(s) and the realism of their relationship. If you can fit a certain personality and make it work then I am more then willing to read it. There are various dimensions to people so one perception isn't the only one.

Sam may not be as outwardly 'masculine' as Dean (which I think is more a defense mechanism to mask his vulnerability and his resulting loneliness personally) but at the core of his character Sam is more independent and autonomous and is the more willing of the two to go his own path without his brother. He does what he wants and paved his own way. He frequently challenged his authority figure and so on. His actions just seem to scream dominant. So in the Dean/Sam situation I find Dean to be so incredibly needy that he would bottom for Sam. I admit that this perception of Dean makes it very hard to see him as a top as he that image of care giving, supporting and mediating between Sam and John is often a maternal stereotype. It makes it very difficult to see Top!Dean if that is the view that is seen of him. Why does Bottom!Dean and Broken!Dean have more weight then Broken!Sam does?

However for me that completely changes when Sam is under age (for obvious reasons he doesn't have full capabilities of his sexual prowess/idenity he needs older Dean at this sensitive point in his age to guide him since he is inexperienced. I also think the hurt/comfort factor also automatically makes who ever is the injured party the bottom for another obvious reason.

Age and Injury seem to always be the swing factors in these sort of things for either Sam/Dean or Jensen/Jared.

My conclusion to this long diatribe:

In theory should be able to enjoy all kinds of J2 porn. Why can't we? For some it's fine and easy? But there are a lot of readers who need to have a certain top. But why? It's porn featuring our favorite actors/characters. So why does it deftly matter so much to us? It seems so much stronger then just a simple preference. A preference is like a tooth paste. I can't use Colgate I guess I will use Aquafresh. But no. Often times I see comments that express an allergy to a certain top. 'No bottom Jensen please', 'I don't read top Jensen', etc.

To some readers who tops and bottoms is incredibly important to them. But I am genuinely curious why. I admit that I have a very strong preference for Top!Jared/Sam but why is it difficult for me to enjoy a top!Jensen story?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

First of all, hi! I was reading Blanco on spnkink_meme and decided to check out your profile and boy am I interested in this topic! I have to apologise in advance if this turns out too long or kind of ramble -y (is this even a word?).

Okay, so first of all I love all your arguments and the way you expressed yourself and it was very interesting reading this, even if I don’t share your views on the matter…yeah, I’m one of those top!Dean/Jensen fans *g*

I came into the fandom at the end of Season 4 and I started reading fics that summer. I identified myself as a Dean girl from the start and this may have to do something with the fact I prefer him to top. The first fics I read were actually quite well balanced, both boys taking turns in topping and dominating the other. And I think that’s when I saw that even when Sam was topping, Dean was still the big brother, comforting and in some ways giving Sam what he needed…and that’s what maybe believe that in their relationship the real dominant is Dean. Of course, I absolutely agree with what you said of each person perceiving this differently and being influenced heavily by the first fics they read.

As far as the canon sex scenes go, yes, Sam seems to be more of an aggressor but I take it that it was because of the circumstances. Dean’s sex scene with Cassy was so emotional, it was something Dean once used to have and now knew he could never have again and he let Cassy show him just for one last time how things could’ve been. Sam’s scene with Madison was also very emotional because she was the first woman to come so close to him after Jess’ death and Sam’s emotions were out of control making him sort of feral.

Let’s not forget Dean having sex with one (or two I can’t quite remember) girl in the first episode of Season 3 and it’s implied it was quite wild and kinky. Then with Anna…it was possible that they would die and he knew that given the choice he would betray her in order to save Sam. With Lisa, once again it was something he did have but lost it and left it behind him…None of his sex scenes are happy or just about getting off…they’re emotional and very, very sad. And Sam with Ruby….that was hate sex in my opinion and it’s only natural that it was so aggressive.

And my very own personal preference, my head canon, is Sam bullying Dean into fucking him. I like the idea of Sam being desperate for Dean…all his life Sam had tried to be as strong and as good as (or better than) Dean, his big brother. And he did that either by fighting him, being obnoxious, moody, pouty or even tender and I can easily see Dean snapping and giving Sam what he needs, putting him down and asserting dominance. For example, in Season 6 when Dean goes all alpha male on Samuel telling him that he is going to kill him at some point and not letting Sam do it right then and Sam just goes with it…well, that’s how I see them in sex too.

Now as far as J2 is concerned…I think Jensen is more toppy than Jared. Size doesn’t matter (*sniggers*) because in real life the fact that someone is born with genes that happen to make him taller than another person doesn’t mean anything when it comes to sex. I actually have a kink for this (smaller built men overpowering bigger men), so this might be way I see them this way.

But the fact that Jensen is more shy and reserved in public doesn’t really mean much to me, either. If you see photos from their personal lives (them out having some fun with friends), Jensen seems more wild than Jared who would be better described as ‘adorable’ for me. Plus, I honestly believe that Jensen has a really, really, really filthy mind. His imitation of a blowjob and the dick he made out of a napkin support my theory.

Jared is talkative and a buddle of energy talking the lead in conversations and making jokes and laughing a bit too loud, but he’s like a wild kid just doing what he likes, whereas Jensen has this calmness about him like he is calculating everything. And Jared has mentioned that Jensen is a control-freak. So yeah, for me both Jensen and Dean are tops.

That being said, if you see the fics I’ve saved on my delicious, all the bottom!Dean/Jensen (yes, they do exist haha) are pwps. It’s kinda sad but I really don’t seem to be able to read a long chaptered fic with real plot and character development if it’s bottom!Jensen/Dean. They can be hot, because come on! it’s porn we’re talking about, but when characterisation comes into focus I just can’t do it.

God…I hope I didn’t bore you to death! I’d really love to hear more of your thoughts on this :D

No I am glad at least someone is reading. I think it's a very interesting concept to explore on whatever side of the fence that you're on because it's kind of the same side in a way. We all have the same feelings about it. Just expressed in the opposite direction. We are very attached to our tops! Lol and I just want to figure out why and it seems to be so very personal in nature to the point where we have a very strong preference and don't really enjoy wavering from it. It basically effects the enjoyment we should be getting from either way from reading about fan fiction all in the fandom should be able to enjoy.

But what gets me the most is when I read comments like 'I was so excited but then I realized ______ was topping :('

These kind of comments I think get to a real heart of the issue (if it even is one). Why is the thought of the other J (who ever it may be) topping so upsetting?

I admit I have at times been disappointed when only Jensen topped, not because I am against him topping per say (I enjoyed a timestamp of the 'Becoming Who We Are' verse written by

elizah_jane where Jensen topped Jared,I thought it was beautifully written and worked well with the characters she created). But what bothered me so much was the fact that it seemed to imply that Jared would never top. I remember reading a fic called Stranger Than Fiction and another fic that had Slave Jared and he was a bottom in both and I remember feeling disappointed. It just felt anti-climatic to me and left me feeling uneasy which reminded me distinctly of that comment above about the disappointment of another J topping.

Is it that we see the manliness quotient of our top being disrupted if they bottom? Do we see it as the bottom being the 'lessor'? Or maybe it's just blind preference but if it's just blind shallow preference why do we become so attached and in grained to certain tops in the first place? We should be able to enjoy either of them topping or bottoming?

I came into the fandom at the end of Season 4 and I started reading fics that summer.

This is interesting, I have heard that before a couple of times saying that some fans identify more with a character and that made them easier to see them as a bottom/top. I honestly wonder if that is a popular case around all of fandom. Dean/Jensen is the most popular character/actor on SPN, he is the favorite. IT stands to reason that if fans/writers were writing fiction then we would be seeing a huge amount of top!Dean fics to the point where he nearly exclusively always tops and that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

In fact in nearly all the communities I am apart of SPN Kink Meme, Take The Knot, Blindfold, Spn storyfinders, DeanSam, J2 recs, etc. Jared/Sam seem to be the predominant tops more often then not. I know TopJensen/Dean is a very popular community that lists a nice chunk of fiction where he tops but I am still thinking even with that counted Jared/Sam seems to top more just when it comes down to averages. So I am thinking either if fans of Dean/Jensen recognize and connect more with him then they would themselves project a more bottom role for him or onto him? I honestly don't know. But I find that point to be quite a dubious one. I for the most part don't think that being a Deangirl or a Jensengirl (or any girl really) necessarily means that you seek more fiction where they top.

I think that's shown quite well in Destiel fics where Cas and Dean seem to switch and it's a 50/50 top situation. It honestly feels like Cas and Dean fans seem not to care either way. However fandom as a whole seems to really like bottom!Dean more so in SPN fics (he bottoms for demons, Sam, John, Lucifer, Alistair, Azazel, so and on so forth to the point where he only seems to predominantly top in some selected Sam/Dean stories or in Het and even in Het there seems to be a number of pegging stories requests as well. lol.)

I really don't think popularity or personal recognizably within a character/actor is a big deal at least in fan fiction.

when I saw that even when Sam was topping, Dean was still the big brother
I think that is another interesting point you made. At some point there is a switch and I think it really is tied to what you read and experience first in this fandom taking root in your subconscious. I do see that most stories where Dean!tops it usually expresses the traits of Dean being older, stronger, world weary and experienced to the point where Sam is often younger, naive, softer, and weaker in stories and he needs Dean to help him.

Conversely I often see in top!Sam stories Dean is usually broken, emotionally scarred, hungry for affection and love and is desperately in need of his family in his co-dependency and Sam is looked at as being more capable, holding his own weight and often very controlling and directive.

These tropes seem to stick and hold within us very strongly and it may just come down to preference and why one version: Broken!Dean or Broken!Sam pushes us more in one direction then it does another.

is Sam bullying Dean into fucking him.

Interesting, that is a very dominant action and thought. I guess I am interested in why for you that bullying Dean means him bottoming instead of him topping? Cause I am often the same way on Sam being aggressive. I do see Sam as being pushy and being the one who initiates contact with Dean more often then not in fiction. Naturally in sex Sam is aggressive too (he is too reserved most of the time this is probably the only way he blows of steam) that is one thing that has always been consistent about Sam's sexuality. He is very demanding in sex. Soulless or Soul-ed. When he is happy or when he is sad. This trope idea is alike to Top!Sam and Bottom!Sam alike. It also seems to be a major selling point for a lot of Bottom Sam! fans too. They like it when he is pushy and establishing a power bottom persona or a topping from the bottom persona.

But why does that dominance manifest itself from bottoming instead of through topping?

I can easily see Dean snapping and giving Sam what he needs, putting him down and asserting dominance.

Interesting. I see flashes of this. Specifically in scenes where Dean is angry with Sam and needs to 'put him down' so to speak (Bloodlust, Metamorphosis, Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things, You Can't Handle The Truth, When The Levee Breaks, etc.) So I definitely see where it comes from and why you want to see it. I guess in this case I just see it as a rare occurrence in Dean's character. He is usually the one who feels the need to make Sam feel better and usually bends more in trying to make Sam feel better or keep him happy. I feel this happens a lot in s1 and s6.

While Dean may be hot headed, angry and at times will strike out on Sam he is also usually the first one to apologize and seek reconciliation. So I can definitely see those brief occasions where Dean would top out of anger and 'snap' so to speak. But it would happen in only those few handful of situations. At least for me the way I see it.

smaller built men overpowering bigger men

I totally get this. It's a power thing more then anything else I feel. It's making a man who typically is taller, stronger or whatever submit to the stereo typically 'weaker' man is a very hot notion. I think this is a kink in Destiel as well with Cas being super powerful and Dean being human but he tops Cas anyway.

His imitation of a blowjob and the dick he made out of a napkin support my theory.

I totally think Jensen plays with it up more typically in the gag reels 'I miss your musk'. However Jared has also made some filthy comments to 'so you want me to jerk Jensen on the floor and pop a shot in his mouth' comes to mind from s5 gag reel. I also think his drunk pictures and his moose pics are hilarious.

It’s kinda sad but I really don’t seem to be able to read a long chaptered fic with real plot and character development if it’s bottom!Jensen/Dean...but when characterisation comes into focus I just can’t do it.

That's exactly what I am talking about! I remembering someone writing this about many Big Bangs and saying they couldn't enjoy them since there was so little top!Jensen in them. I guess I just don't get it. Why are we such top!purists? lol. Switching also seems to be merely none existent though, perhaps because as a writer it's harder? I think the main thing is trying to write a story where their sexual positions match up with their personality and making the sex more connected to story and symbolism rather then just sex for the sake of sex. But that also puts off some readers who want a solid top all through out. It's all just really messy and I just want to know why.

I remember reading a fic called Stranger Than Fiction and another fic that had Slave Jared and he was a bottom in both and I remember feeling disappointed.

First of all, Stranger than fiction is one of my most FAVOURITE fics ever!!

thenyxie is a wonderful author and she’s the top!Dean/Jensen to

fleshflutter’s top!Sam/Jared haha. I adore

fleshflutter’s fics because her writing is gorgeous, but what I really appreciate is that even when Jensen bottoms in sex, he’s never a weak character who needs comfort and protection. He’s downright badass.

And now we come to a point I would also like to make…If we’re talking about things from a purely sexual perspective, then I must admit that I’m way more okay with bottom!Jensen. But what bothers me in fics is when Jensen is the bottom of the relationship as a whole. When he’s ‘submitting’ to Jared. Because, as I see it, Jensen could still submit to Jared and be the one doing the penetration during sex and this is not something I enjoy generally.

And slave fics…that’s the one subject I find the most mind-boggling! It’s kinda ridiculous if you think about it because these fics couldn’t get any more AU if they tried and that’s basically an author creating a character and just pasting Jared or Jensen’s face on it. So why would it matter which one is topping? And yet, I really don’t like slave!Jensen.

Do we see it as the bottom being the 'lessor'?

I’ve asked myself the same question many a time and I don’t think that’s it, because when I read a sex scene I get more excited by Jared bottoming rather than Jensen topping. Do you understand what I’m saying? I think it’s just something that sorely has to do with what one enjoys as a kink/fetish or whatever you want to call it.

It stands to reason that if fans/writers were writing fiction then we would be seeing a huge amount of top!Dean fics to the point where he nearly exclusively always tops and that doesn't seem to be the case to me.
So I am thinking either if fans of Dean/Jensen recognize and connect more with him then they would themselves project a more bottom role for him or onto him?

I think it’s that Jensen (and consequently Dean) is the ‘prettier’ one and people are attracted to him and find that because he has some feminine features, he should be the ‘girl’ in the relationship. That’s just a thought and I know that there are people who see it that way but I don’t know if it could be the main reason Jensen/Dean is depicted as the one with the bottom role.

These tropes seem to stick and hold within us very strongly and it may just come down to preference and why one version: Broken!Dean or Broken!Sam pushes us more in one direction then it does another.

It’s kind of a stereotype I think. Someone has been hurt, needs comfort, protection and care and automatically they become a bottom. That’s why I love stories where Dean is hurt and still a BAMF…even if he doesn’t top in sex, I couldn’t see him just curling up on Sam’s side and letting Sam baby him and say something close to ‘I will take care of you, I’m gonna make everything alright’ and liking it. It’s OOC and it’s a turn off for me because even if Sam took care of everything, hurt!Dean would still be the big brother who’d try to take care of Sam. Dean would never allow Sam to say something like this even if he needed it and Sam went ahead and did it.

I think it all comes down to what someone means by ‘topping’ and ‘bottoming’. Is it just something purely sexual, meaning who takes it up the ass (to put it bluntly) and who gives it during sex, or is it something more general, like Sam penetrating Dean, but Dean is in control of everything.

I guess I am interested in why for you that bullying Dean means him bottoming instead of him topping?
But why does that dominance manifest itself from bottoming instead of through topping?

I don’t know…I think it’s one of my kinks, going against what might be considered ‘normal’ lol! Sam being pushy and aggressive would ‘normally’ mean him taking Dean, but I get a kink out of Sam actually wanting to bend over! It’s something that has to do simply with the porn side of things. When it comes to their relationship I like things being mostly equal…Yes, Dean is the big brother and I like him being in control, but Sam is no pushover. He’s demanding and vocal when he really wants something and he’d tear this world apart if someone threatened Dean…so I’m also kind of turned off by Sam being wimpy. This doesn’t apply to weecest of course, since Sam as a teenager would’ve been way more innocent and soft than as an adult.

I just see Dean as a very complex character mainly because I think he was messed up from the beginning and even though both boys are broken, Dean has been so for longer…So there’s conflict in him: do what his instincts and brain tell him, do what is supposed to be right or wrong or do what’s simply best for Sam. And since Sam is more important than anything, he usually yields to him, asks for forgiveness and goes back to him immediately because he’s afraid Sam might leave yet again. I think he sees that as a weakness but he still wants Sam to just listen to him and do as he says. He learnt to take orders and he was taught how to give them to Sam by his Dad and he still expects Sam to follow them.

However, all this has to do with characterisation mostly. It still doesn’t explain why I feel so strongly about Jensen bottoming in an AU fic that is just bound to be OOC.

I must admit that I’m way more okay with bottom!Jensen.

I think this is an interesting point. I am way more okay with Bottom!Jared generally if JDM comes into play. But I feel like that is an exclusivity as JDM is one of the few cases where I can envision bottom Jared. I just feel there is an authority figure there that would be quite directive so it's more believable to me that he would take Jared. I don't know there is just something about JDM all scruffy, deep voiced and sturdy that makes me think that Jared would be pliant and willing to role over with him, yet I can't make that same persona click with Jensen.

Yet I can't for the life of me see Bottom!Sam with John, unless he is ridiculously young and even that kind of weird's me out in ways.

When with Jensen I can't help but think 'Jared is letting him top' which means that Jared is giving Jensen an allowance and I can't imagine Jared doing it time after time and enjoying it as much as Jensen would. Not to mention I just can see in my minds eye that Jared likely could pick him up, pull him down, push him into the wall, etc. and just take him like that.

Weird but just how I see it. I can see Jared manhandling Jensen like that especially if they get into a scuffle and start becoming more physical. Oddly enough. Perhaps it's just the fics that I have read but I have read too many where Jensen enjoys it to make that slip from my mind. In my mind the character created just loves it maybe that's from all the size-queen fics.

Jensen could still submit to Jared and be the one doing the penetration during sex

I kind of disagree in a way, I guess I want the sex to be seen more or less as an extension of their relationship. It wouldn't mesh well with me if Jared was a top in all of their everyday situations but then in the bedroom was writing on the bed asking Jensen to stick it to him. How did this happen? How did Jared get there? Were did this change come from? I really like there to be progression and understand where the head space of the character is.

So why would it matter which one is topping?

Interesting. I for the most part really like AU as long as I can tell there is at least some bit of the personality of the person we know Jensen/Jared to be in there. I am often put off by fics where Jared is a hermit for instance. Or this incredibly quite person who shies away from other people. It's like really? This guy couldn't be any friendlier or more gregarious, I just can't make it work. I also find it to be incredibly put offish if either of them are drag queens or ridiculously over the top and campy. It removes the personality to me and it does make it OOC.

I get more excited by Jared bottoming rather than Jensen topping.

I actually completely get it now. It may just come down to the kink and the personality/characters are just the way to express them. And then having that kink being the dominant view being instilled in the viewers and writers I guess since they enjoy it so much?

Someone who may have a size kink may want top!Jared and someone who may want a power-destablization/steteotype reversal kink(?) may just want top Jensen. I think I get it now. That makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense that Jared and Jensen would be the two windows to that seeing as they are the most popular RPS characters in SPN verse. But what about Sam and Dean? Are we saying those same ideas apply to fully fleshed out characters? I feel like it doesn't.

I think it’s that Jensen (and consequently Dean) is the ‘prettier’ one

I can see that argument as well. I even get the stereotype and am even sympathetic to the characterization. I even see how that kink could become entrenched in readers minds and held as a law for enjoying RPS fiction. To where they become attached to Bottom!Jensen.

hurt!Dean would still be the big brother who’d try to take care of Sam.

I think the reason why I can read bottom!Dean is just because I can totally envision Dean needing Sam that much to where he would bottom where as I can't really see Sam doing that at least not at first.

I can see Dean being so hungry for love and wanting deep inside himself for Sam to love him unconditionally and yes even wanting Sam in some way to cherish him and the bedroom would be the only place where Sam could express that since Dean doesn't like talking.

So I can totally see Dean bottoming for Sam because I believe he needs that kind of validation, painfully so since John isn't there to give it and Sam is the closest thing he has left for unconditional love and family. It's not so much that I don't think he will ever top (I can't envision him not at some point wanting a turn) but so much that he would bottom for Sam first because he has this neediness about him that only family can soothe. Where as with Sam I can't see him wanting to bottom for Dean especially after his break for Stanford. Especially with him wanting out of the baby brother mold and for Dean to respect him in his own right.

I can see Dean doing whatever he could to make this thing with Sam work though and enticing him with sex. He has done that emotionally it seems in season 1 to the extent where he was quite shocked that Sam was considering leaving him again.

but I get a kink out of Sam actually wanting to bend over!

I completely understand this. lol.

I’m also kind of turned off by Sam being wimpy

I get this too, but I am also a huge fan of emotional intimacy and the boys let too much go unsaid to where I am willing to take in a little more estrogen then usual in my boys if it accomplishes some resolutions to the boys outstanding issues.

And since Sam is more important than anything, he usually yields to him, asks for forgiveness and goes back to him immediately because he’s afraid Sam might leave yet again. I think he sees that as a weakness but he still wants Sam to just listen to him and do as he says. He learnt to take orders and he was taught how to give them to Sam by his Dad and he still expects Sam to follow them.

I think this is a beautiful statement I think it's a defining one for if you are a top!Dean or a Bottom!Dean fan. Which Dean appeals more to you, yielding!Dean or authoritarian!Dean and both are valid interpretations.

It still doesn’t explain why I feel so strongly about Jensen bottoming

Is it the bottoming that bothers you or the out of characterness? I imagine that for me I could never be able to get into a fic that was out of character or didn't read true to salient personality points. At that point it wouldn't even bother me who was bottoming.

I am way more okay with Bottom!Jared generally if JDM comes into play.

I can’t read anything with JDM. It just weirds me out…unless of course he is not sexually involved with the boys. I have to admit that I have read John/Dean dub-con but only because the focus was on Sam and I could never stomach anything where Dean or Sam would willingly submit to their father like that.

Not to mention I just can see in my minds eye that Jared likely could pick him up, pull him down, push him into the wall, etc. and just take him like that.

Have you read Who Watches Over Me? Jensen is Jared’s bodyguard and even though Jared is in no way a weakling, Jensen is a trained ex-marine and he can put Jared on his back in two seconds flat. I obviously don’t think that’s something that can happen in reality because it’s obvious that Jared works out more than Jensen, but it’s generally possible for a smaller guy to manhandle a bigger man. And I kind of love that.

It wouldn't mesh well with me if Jared was a top in all of their everyday situations but then in the bedroom was writing on the bed asking Jensen to stick it to him. How did this happen?

I think you’re seeing this the wrong way…Just because someone likes anal sex, that doesn’t mean he has to roll over and beg for it. I’ve read a couple of fics where Jared pushed Jensen in the bed and he was the obvious dominant part and he just rode Jensen and called all the shots until it was Jensen begging Jared. So you see, even if it was Jared with Jensen’s dick in his ass, Jensen was being dominated and it didn’t sit well with me.

I for the most part really like AU as long as I can tell there is at least some bit of the personality of the person we know Jensen/Jared to be in there.

Oh yeah, me too, generally. I don’t like fics where Jensen is a blushing virgin because he may be reserved and kind of shy in public, but he makes me believe that in sex he is very dirty. And I don’t generally like fics where Jared is an asshole because the I see him as an adorable and very kind person.

Someone who may have a size kink may want top!Jared and someone who may want a power-destablization/steteotype reversal kink(?) may just want top Jensen.

Yeah, that makes sense. In all honesty, in most homosexual relationships, the guys take turns in ‘bottoming’. It doesn’t matter who leads in the bedroom, I think that either being dominant or not, a gay man would both enjoy penetration and penetrating.

But what about Sam and Dean? Are we saying those same ideas apply to fully fleshed out characters? I feel like it doesn't.

That’s the big mystery. Who knows? Both boys need reassurance and love and they seek it in different ways so I can believe that if pigs started flying and wincest became canon, then they might both enjoy bottoming from time to time. But in some ways it all depends on each person and how they perceive each character and sometimes how much of themselves they see into them. That’s just a thought, though and I don’t know how valid it could be.

So I can totally see Dean bottoming for Sam because I believe he needs that kind of validation, painfully so since John isn't there to give it and Sam is the closest thing he has left for unconditional love and family.
Where as with Sam I can't see him wanting to bottom for Dean especially after his break for Stanford. Especially with him wanting out of the baby brother mold and for Dean to respect him in his own right.

That’s where our views clash! Haha I totally respect how you see them, don’t get me wrong, but my interpretation of them is kind of different.

You see, I can understand Dean waning to bottom for Sam with the thought of ‘not hurting his baby brother’ in mind. I can also see Sam being annoyed that Dean doesn’t think he can take it or even like it. Dean would bottom for Sam out of fear of not doing something Sam wants and thus loosing his brother. And yes, I can see Sam wanting to top Dean, but no matter how much he wants to be Dean’s equal and fights to prove that he doesn’t need Dean, I think it’s mostly a front because he does need Dean and he still is Dean’s little brother even if Dean has started treating him like an adult. This was very clear in Season 3 where Sam felt lost at the idea of loosing Dean and sought reassurance. When Dean came back and Sam was obviously more dominant in their relationship it was because he was being manipulated by Ruby. When finally things were sorted out, Sam wanted Dean to finally see him as an adult and they were on more equal grounds and that’s where I can see them switching places in bottoming and topping.

Since I absolutely LOATH evil!Sam or demon-blood!drunk!Sam (and I think it’s the only Sam who would successfully top Dean) I stay clear of all fics of this kind.

And after Stanford, I think that Sam would want to show Dean how much he really didn’t do it to get away from him, how much he still loves him and what Dean means to him and I can see Sam giving himself to Dean.

Is it the bottoming that bothers you or the out of characterness? I imagine that for me I could never be able to get into a fic that was out of character or didn't read true to salient personality points. At that point it wouldn't even bother me who was bottoming.

I don’t know…a bit of both maybe? I hate Jensen being described as someone who always needs Jared and is in some ways weaker than him. And I really get all hot for Jared bending over (LOL), so I guess it’s a combination of the two? Because both guys are MEN! And I’m not saying that ‘men don’t cry’ (how could I ever be a Dean girl if I believed that? lol), but neither of them are as sensitive as women are. And from what I’ve seen from interviews and conventions, they both are very stable and strong characters and I like seeing this in fic. Don’t get me wrong though, I love h/c as much as the next fangirl, I just don’t like seeing either one of them completely weak (with some exceptions of course haha).

but it’s generally possible for a smaller guy to manhandle a bigger man.

I know that, I think it's easier to see that when Sam is younger though or in season 1 where Jared is generally quite lanky and didn't have nearly as much muscle. From s2 onward though he packed on muscle like a hulk and Jensen always stayed reasonably slim and so the physical description of him being about to subdue this 6' and a half foot 230lb man is marginally less believable. But I don't doubt that it could happen under different circumstances.

Jensen was being dominated and it didn’t sit well with me.

Interesting, for me it doesn't really matter if the bottom is pushy or in control per say. I often at times find that to be hot actually. If the bottom is really vocal, into it and is giving the top a run for their money so to speak. I think the hang up that gets me the most is the bottoming and the general personality of the character meshing with their sexual role. I think that's why I have a hard time thinking of Jared/Sam as this bottom! slut who just wants it all the time. I can see them doing it once in a while to shake things up but I can't think of that being the norm in their relationship for some reason.

I think it’s mostly a front because he does need Dean and he still is Dean’s little brother

I certainly do think that Sam does need Dean. However I also think he is incredibly proud. It seems to me that it rankles him being the little brother to the point where he fights Dean tooth and nail for equality. For that reason alone I have a hard time seeing him consistently giving up more 'power' to Dean in sex, which is probably the one place where Sam feels he is strong and dominant in.

Too much in Sam's life has been out of his control to the point where he tries to do whatever he can to be in control (leaving John, going to college, using his powers, etc.) I guess I can't see him giving up the little control he has consistently. Especially if Dean is more compliant and wouldn't push for it. Yeah I can certainly see Sam giving it up to Dean on rare occasions to show Dean that he loves him and trusts him explicitly. But I also think being in control is something Sam needs in his life and sex is one of the few outlets he has for that. Which makes me think that he wouldn't give it up easily or frequently.

I hate Jensen being described as someone who always needs Jared

I understand this. But I have to say I have never really read a fiction where Jensen and Jared weren't emotionally stable so to speak. Unless we are talking about AU where one of them has mental issues. I remember reading college'verse by

certainentropy and while Jared and Jensen cetainly did pine and get their emo on they were still male characters who loved and missed their other half. However I certainly understand your dislike for waif!Jared/Jensen. I remember reading a cop/journalist fic about a serial killer and was quite turned off by a Jared who seemed to me to be very feminized in terms of not being able to stomach the killings and needed Jensen by his side at all times to deal with every clue that the killer sent to the newspaper.

and I think it’s the only Sam who would successfully top Dean I stay clear of all fics of this kind.

Interesting, I don't think s4 Sam is the only one who could top Dean. I actually think s2 and s3 Sam could top Dean as well. It's not that Sam is evil that gives him the top distinction to me so much as his angst, anger and emotional baggage that would lead him to just 'snap' so to speak to use your words. Sam's anger unlike Dean's is usually placed outwards especially in seasons 1-4 (Azazel, Lilith) and season 6 (Samuel, Cas), while Dean's anger usually is placed inward on himself (1-2 and 4-6 seem to be an extension of I failed) and he often blames himself, and I guess that is another aspect of their relationship. I can more likely see Sam projecting his need for control outward in sex as a way of pushing his anger outside of him. While with Dean I could see him trying to heal all of his wounds and 'failures' by having Sam truly value him which I think leads more towards Dean bottoming as Sam would better express his love that way. Sam likes having sex on his terms.

I think that's why I have a hard time thinking of Jared/Sam as this bottom! slut who just wants it all the time. I can see them doing it once in a while to shake things up but I can't think of that being the norm in their relationship for some reason.

I think this is where our opinions differ because I don’t see Sam as ‘wanting it all the time slut’ just because he’s the one taking it. Well, granted, I do like those type of stories, they kinda push my buttons (a lot), but I don’t see a man as a needy bottom just because he likes being penetrated.

In any case, the point is that there are many factors to be taken into consideration, sexual preferences are something really personal and unique for each person and they play a huge role when it comes to fics. Also, each person interprets the characters differently so it’s only natural that there so many different opinions. This still doesn’t explain why we get so hung up on who’s topping or bottoming haha!

Sometimes I wish I didn’t care so much because there are so many fics out there I could read and now I avoid for the simple reason that Jensen/Dean bottom. It’s kind of annoying, but maybe this will change…When I first started reading fanfiction I happened to find fics that featured both boys topping but slowly turned towards top!Jensen/Dean exclusively and I would refuse to read anything else. Now I can make some exceptions (or even bypass the sex scenes for the sake of the rest of the fic) and I even wrote a bottom!Jensen fic (oh the irony, huh?) XD

This still doesn’t explain why we get so hung up on who’s topping or bottoming haha!

I actually think it may just be those kinks, perceptions, characterizations that we view and like are held up to some certain canon law and then we are unable to deviate from that. Which I get for better or for worse. Any deviance from that view that is molded within our reading is 'not canon' and we no longer can read (or live) in that alternative world where that perception is threatened, inverted or changed. But that does lend one to a rather narrow window of the fandom. Which as you stated above is quite sad.

I loved talking with you about this though. Sometimes you need another person to work through something to find an answer and I think I finally get it now. Because of this conversation I am actually trying to incorporate a top!Jensen scene into my current fic I am writing now (Blanco). So it was definitely worth discussing.

I loved talking to you too!! It was really great to be able to share views and opinions like that even though we see things differently! Thanks for all of your great arguments! And please feel free to talk to me whenever you want :D

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Topping and Bottoming in SPN fandom and who it's with.

no subject

no subject

Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!

Re: Thanks for the Comment!